Indonesia has the ability 'to counter-tap'

"Indonesian intelligence is smart, so it's not revealed," says Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono, a former head of the Indonesian intelligence agency Badan Intelijen Negara.

Indonesia's former top spy master has accused his own President of exaggerating the problem of phone tapping, saying attempts by intelligence agencies to snoop on national leaders were "normal".

And former spy agency chief Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono has also punctured claims by his Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa that Indonesia would never tap the phones of Australian politicians, insisting it was a routine part of "black intelligence".

Despite this, Mr Hendropriyono has urged Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott to apologise to Indonesia and get back to the business of building good relations.

Mr Hendropriyono, the head of Badan Intelijen Negara (BIN) until 2004, has been thrust into the Australian political debate because of a TV interview he gave in 2004, in which he admitted to bugging Australian politicians. That interview has been widely used by Mr Abbott's supporters to defend the Prime Minister's position.

In an interview with Fairfax Media, the former Indonesian army general has now amplified his 2004 comments, saying of Australia's attempts to listen to the conversations of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, the first lady and their confidantes: "For intelligence, it's normal."

He added that Indonesia not only had the capacity to tap the phones of Australians, but that intelligence agencies also had a responsibility to try it, "friend or foe".

"We are fighting for life. We have to compete with many competitors so... we should collect as much as possible information," Mr Hendropriyono said.

Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa has explicitly denied that Indonesia listens to the phone calls of its "friends", saying that such behaviour was illegal, immoral and "we don't do it". President Yudhoyono made a similar point as he suspended all military co-operation with Australia.

But Mr Hendropriyono contradicted both men: "Indonesian intelligence is smart, so it's not revealed," he said.

Asked if Indonesia could listen to Mr Abbott's phone, he said: "We have the ability to tap and to counter-tap". However, he also suggested that Australian counterintelligence would prevent this happening.

Mr Hendropriyono said human intelligence — what he called "white intelligence" — was standard practice in embassies worldwide, but that phone tapping was "the most reliable" way to confirm information gathered.

"Tapping and counter-tapping is quite common in the intelligence life, because it is one of their primary jobs," he said.

"There is no permanent friend, or there is no permanent foe. However, there is a permanent interest... our nation's interest... How can intelligence not spy [on] anybody? He must spy himself, spy his friends and spy his enemy. It's what he should do."

He acknowledged the practice was illegal, but said the main fault leading to Australia's current embarrassment was that the information had leaked, and the politicians had become involved.

"Intelligence is judged like in sport, two boxers fighting in the ring. They punch and they counter-punch... They attack and they defend themselves, but it is in the ring — the ring of intelligence. If the officials, in this case politicians, interfere in the case, that is wrong. That is very wrong."

Now that it is in the political arena, the politicians have overreacted, he said.

"[It's] overreaction from both sides... none has any deep enough understanding about intelligence," he said.

"Your Prime Minister also, I think, is exaggerating. He said he... doesn't want to apologise... You can say, yes, in the diplomatic view we are supposed to apologise... like President Obama apologised as the President.

"I hope that both our leaders, SBY as well as Tony Abbott should not be too emotional... Please do not deteriorate [the relationship] because of a very small thing. This is a very technical thing."

Mr Hendropriyono also revealed a previously hidden motive for giving the original 2004 interview to the Nine Network's Sun-day program.

"I have a very good relationship with my friends, the directors of ASIS and ASIO, and I would like them to be more alert, to raise the capability of their intelligence, and that is why I mentioned, 'I tapped you'... Then your intelligence gets more budget for counterintelligence.

"That is the way of intelligence techniques."